Sweater

References

• This Map Shows You What Your Neighbors Consider “Sweater Weather”
• Weezer
  • My Name is Jonas
  • Undone – The Sweater Song
  • Buddy Holly
• Multiverse
• Chasing Amy
• Fred Rogers
• Movies Use Real Skeletons More Often Than You Realize
• Amazing Stories
  • Hell Toupee
• The Gingerdead Man
• Child’s Play
• Death Bed: The Bed That Eats
• A Nightmare on Elm Street
• New Nightmare
• Friday the 13th
• Propstore
• Alfred Hitchcock
  • Alfred Hitchcock On Mastering Cinematic Tension
• Lord of War
  • Opening Credits | Lord Of War
• La Brea Tar Pits
• Halloween Horror Nights at Universal Studios
• Almost Plausible: Leap Day
• The Sixth Sense
• Roman Polanski
• Gaslighting
• Final Girl
• M. Night Shyamalan

Transcript

[Intro music begins]

[Thomas]
Sure, yeah. You can’t tell what the colors are.

[Thomas]
“Did I do a murder?”

[Intro music]

[Thomas]
Hey there, story fans. Welcome to Almost Plausible, the podcast where we take ordinary objects and turn them into movies. I’m Thomas J. Brown. With me are Emily-

[Emily]
Hey, guys.

[Thomas]
And F. Paul Shepard.

[Shep]
Happy to be here.

[Thomas]
If you haven’t already, it’s time to get your cold-weather clothes out of storage because this week we’re going to come up with a movie plot where a sweater plays a crucial role. And before we get to the pitches, I recently saw a map of the United States that showed the average temperature that people in each state consider to be “sweater weather”. So I’m curious to see what each of you feels that temperature is.

[Emily]
65.

[Shep]
I was going to say 50.

[Thomas]
So, in Washington state, where we all live, 55 is the average of what people say, 51 is the coldest for a state. That’s South Dakota.

[Shep]
That makes sense.

[Emily]
Now makes sense.

[Thomas]
Yeah. The warmest, you’ll be surprised to hear is in Arizona, 65 degrees.

[Emily]
Hmm. Checks out.

[Thomas]
I just thought that was kind of interesting to see, like, of course all over the country people have a different definition of what that means. When does it get cold?

[Emily]
What do you think?

[Thomas]
I think I said 60 originally, yeah. I am from Hawaii, so.

[Emily]
Yeah, I’m always cold, so 65 feels right for me.

[Shep]
Didn’t you grow up in the south?

[Emily]
I did that probably might have something to do with it.

[Shep]
And I grew up on a mountaintop. So this all checks out. It’s whatever temperature it was when you were a child.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
Well, Emily, you’re pitching first today, so let’s see what you have.

[Emily]
Oh, lovely. All right, I have: Tyler loved his hand-knit baby blankie more than anything. When it was time to go off to college, he decided he couldn’t be that guy with a baby blanket at college. So he gets his grandmother to convert it into a sweater and wears it the first day of classes and feels confident. And his day goes very well. A few weeks later, he’s invited to a frat party and decides to wear a sweater to give him that boost of confidence. While there, an attractive young woman spills wine on it. She’s very apologetic and a little drunk. She takes the sweater off his back and runs to wash it. The sweater gets lost and he’s devastated and he doesn’t know how to carry on. It’s a man and his baby blanket/sweater. Tale as old as time. All right.

[Thomas]
I feel like he needs to get that girl to knit him a new one.

[Emily]
Right? And the next one is a man named Jonah’s life is mystically tied to his sweater. As long as the sweater is intact, he’ll live forever. One day, he notices a loose thread and realizes the end is near.

[Shep]
Because he can’t stop pulling on it?

[Emily]
Yeah. As he walks away. It was a Weezer joke.

[Shep]
I don’t get the joke. This is a Weezer reference?

[Emily]
Yeah, it’s a Weezer reference, so it’s cool.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
I’m not cool enough to get this reference.

[Emily]
There’s a song called My Name Is Jonah. And then there’s another song called The Sweater Song where the lyrics, they’re very fitting to my story.

[Thomas]
I didn’t know they had a song, My name is Jonah.

[Emily]
My Name is Jonah. Or Jonas. I’m sorry, I think it’s Jonas, not Jonah.

[Shep]
Oh, that’s completely different.

[Thomas]
I still wouldn’t have known.

[Emily]
Yeah, I’m sorry. It is Jonas. No, not 90s Weezer fans?

[Thomas]
I liked The Sweater Song.

[Emily]
And The Sweater Song’s awesome. I almost put in a bit about them, him looking like Buddy Holly, but I thought that was too obvious.

[Shep]
That I would have got.

[Thomas]
Yeah. All right, I’ll go next. Josh somehow becomes lost in the multiverse, but eventually he realizes that the pattern on the knit sweater he’s wearing is a map to navigate the multiverse, which he uses to make it back to his home universe.

[Shep]
Where’d he get the sweater from?

[Thomas]
I don’t know. I think that’d be an interesting thing to explore. Perhaps wherever he got the sweater from is the same reason why he is lost in the multiverse in the first place.

[Emily]
How does he figure out it’s a map of the multiverse? I just feel like it would be a bunch of squiggles and colors and stuff.

[Thomas]
Yeah, that sounds right.

[Emily]
Okay.

[Thomas]
My other pitch: Debbie is a single woman in the city doing her best to make ends meet. Once a month her work has themed parties which she thinks are dumb, but she participates in to demonstrate that she’s a team player. In the middle of the summer, the theme is “cozy winter night” where everyone is encouraged to wear warm clothing.

[Shep]
In the middle of summer? Who planned this?

[Thomas]
They go to like a really air-conditioned bar or something. I don’t know.

[Emily]
Christmas in July.

[Thomas]
Right. The only thing she has on hand is an ugly Christmas sweater. So she throws it on and catches the subway to the party. Or probably more realistically, throws it over her arm and then puts it on when she gets to the party.

[Shep]
Right. Yeah.

[Thomas]
While on the subway, the sweater gets caught on a cute guy’s backpack. And ever the hopeless romantic, Debbie wonders if this could be their meet-cute. Her belief that this is the start of something between them is bolstered when she sees the guy later at the party. He’s a cater waiter or something. Debbie is gently cajoled by her boss for wearing such an ugly sweater. But Amy, one of Debbie’s co-workers, says she likes the sweater. Debbie pursues the subway guy hoping for a real-life rom-com. but in the end, she falls in love with Amy.

[Shep]
So she’s Chasing Amy?

[Thomas]
I had not thought about that. But, yes, eventually she is Chasing Amy.

[Shep]
Okay. Do not date your co-workers.

[Thomas]
Yes.

[Emily]
What could possibly go wrong?

[Shep]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
This is a movie, so she can get away with it. But it also doesn’t have to be a work party. It could be some other thing.

[Emily]
Why does the boss pooh-pooh her ugly sweater? She wore a sweater.

[Thomas]
Well, but maybe it’s not like…

[Emily]
Oh.

[Thomas]
It’s like a good-natured ribbing. “Oh,” you know, “she really got an in-“…

[Emily]
Okay.

[Thomas]
I don’t know, whatever.

[Emily]
I guess cajoled is more good-natured.

[Thomas]
I wasn’t, like, teasing her about it or criticizing her for it.

[Emily]
Yeah. Yeah.

[Thomas]
It was like trying to be fun-ish in that way that bosses try to be fun.

[Emily]
Oh.

[Thomas]
And it’s like, please, please don’t.

[Emily]
Just go back to your office.

[Thomas]
Yeah. All right, that’s it for me. Shep, what do you have?

[Shep]
Okay. A real grump receives a zip-up sweater from one of their kids, which they begrudgingly wear. At work, one of their co-workers teases them.

[Thomas]
Is it their boss?

[Shep]
They- Yeah, could be!

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
Their boss cajoles them for looking like Mister Rogers. So as a joke, they start ironically dispensing corny, unserious advice for the rest of the day. Like, “Remember to work yourself to death for the company, and then maybe your parents will love you.” Things that Mister Rogers would not have said. Later on the subway ride home, a small child also notices their resemblance and asks if they are Mister Rogers. So the grump, forced to respond but not wanting to upset some random child, says “Yes.” And they have a brief conversation before the parent and child leave at the next stop. Unlike earlier, the grump tries to stay in character for the conversation. And when they get home, the grump takes off the sweater and goes back to their normal grumpy self. And, like, gets in a shouting match with the residents of the apartment next door. The following day, the grump puts the sweater back on, having found they enjoy being the pleasant person they were pretending to be rather than the grump they actually are.

[Emily]
But deep down inside, he’s got a chocolatey core that makes him happy and lovable.

[Shep]
No. Deep down inside, he’s an asshole. My other pitch, which is basically the same pitch, a horror film fan buys the movie prop sweater used in the first of a horror film franchise. Think like Freddy Krueger’s distinctive striped sweater. Unbeknownst to them, the sweater had in fact originally been owned by a real-life serial killer, after whom the movie killer was modeled. Like when movies used real skeletons because it was cheaper. Like that. Once they have the sweater, they feel a compulsion to put it on, and once they do, they feel a stronger compulsion to kill.

[Emily]
Yes. Let’s do that one. Sold.

[Thomas]
Yeah, that sounds good.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
I like that one.

[Shep]
Uh, we can’t do this one. You know why? This is the plot to one of those episodes of Amazing Stories, except it was a toupee.

[Emily]
Oh, that’s right.

[Shep]
Damn it.

[Thomas]
Well, I mean, this is like a… I don’t wanna say a standard horror movie trope, but, like, this comes up. Thing that was owned by a serial killer or has serial killer blood on it or, you know, Gingerdead Man and what’s the bed that eats one and…

[Emily]
Hmm. Chucky.

[Thomas]
Yeah, like, it would be in good company among all those other ones. Unless there is a movie where it’s a serial killer’s sweater, I think we’re probably okay.

[Shep]
All right.

[Thomas]
So this is a film franchise that exists. How many films are in this franchise?

[Shep]
How many Freddy Krueger films are there? Do you count the spinoffs? Do you count New Nightmare?

[Thomas]
Probably in this world, there’s, like, an original series.

[Emily]
So five.

[Shep]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
Okay, so does the character have an evolution over time or does the character always have the same sweater?

[Shep]
No, it’s evolution over time. It’s like the mask in-

[Emily]
Hockey mask.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
The hockey mask, which doesn’t show up until, like, the fourth movie?

[Emily]
Third.

[Shep]
Third movie?

[Thomas]
Really?

[Emily]
Yep. Third movie. He finds it in a barn.

[Shep]
Yeah. He’s not even the killer in the first movie.

[Emily]
No, in the first one, it’s his mom. In the second one, he wears a burlap sack over his head.

[Shep]
Yeah.

[Emily]
And then in the third movie, he finds a spear gun and the mask in a barn and then, like, kills a bunch of bikers. The third one might be my favorite.

[Thomas]
All right, so this is a pretty distinctive sweater, then, from that first film that set off the whole series.

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
Okay. Where does this person buy it? Is it at a trade show? Is it on eBay? Is it-

[Emily]
In an LA thrift store accidentally dropped off?

[Thomas]
Did they win, like, a prop store auction? Oh, maybe they work in Hollywood and they found it in a wardrobe department and they stole it.

[Emily]
That’s the dream.

[Shep]
These are all good options. The point is, it has to be established that it is the sweater, the actual sweater, used in the first movie.

[Thomas]
It’s the actual one. Right.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
I think what would be reasonable is if either the actor who played the character kept the sweater after the production or the director or the wardrobe person. Like some person involved with the production of the first film kept it. And then, now, let’s say these were done in the 70s. So now it’s like 50 years later, that person has passed away. All their stuff has been either donated or sold at auction or whatever.

[Emily]
Right.

[Thomas]
And so somehow, as a result, this person has acquired it. Estate sale, or like you said, at a Goodwill or something like that.

[Shep]
Oh, okay. I want to make it more complex.

[Thomas]
Okay.

[Shep]
Here’s my thinking. They had a different actor for the first film as well.

[Emily]
Okay.

[Shep]
Between the first and second film, they passed away.

[Emily]
Because the first film was cursed.

[Shep]
Because the first film was cursed.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
Because the sweater is cursed.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Shep]
So we find out later that they died because the sweater had already taken them over or whatever, and maybe they were trying to attack someone, but whatever, they died, and everything got covered up. So their belongings are in their daughter’s house. And, you know, it’s been decades since that first film-

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
So maybe she’s died now as well. And so it’s just a collection of, it’s an estate sale, of things. That’s why it gets lost, because it was the daughter of the original actor.

[Thomas]
So when the buyer goes to this estate sale, do they recognize this is her stuff and she’s the daughter of this actor? They’re already a big f- they’re clearly already a fan of this franchise, right?

[Shep]
Yeah. Maybe they went to that estate sale hoping to find some memorabilia from that obscure first film that most people have forgotten.

[Thomas]
They could just be a movie buff in general.

[Shep]
Okay.

[Thomas]
And so they go to estate sales in LA-

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
Because you get some great old movie stuff there that people have forgotten about. It’s exactly this situation is what they’re hoping for. So they don’t know whose estate this is, but fingers crossed it’s someone good. And it turns out, ooh, it is. So do they realize it when they’re at the sale, whose it is, or is it later?

[Shep]
Okay. Would it be making it too complex to have whoever finds it at the estate sale sell it to our main character?

[Thomas]
So there’s a broker who goes around to these estate sales.

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
Okay.

[Shep]
Because they would be, like you said, an expert in a bunch of movies, and they’re looking specifically for a buyer who’s interested in this movie.

[Thomas]
Sure.

[Shep]
So they have an auction, like you said. Or is that too complex?

[Thomas]
I think because that feels like a normal thing that would happen, you’re not going to alienate audiences. I think people will be like, “Oh, sure, that seems reasonable.” I mean, it sounds reasonable to me. I could absolutely see that being a thing that happens. It probably is a thing that happens in real life, so.

[Shep]
In that case, let’s do all of that in the opening credits.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
Ah, yes. Very good.

[Shep]
And get it out of the way. We have our montage of the broker finding the sweater, establishing who it came from, selling it at auction.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
Oh! See, I keep on making it more complex. What is wrong with me? Now I want someone else to have bought it at the auction to give to our main character, to give them guilt later on when it comes out that this sweater is cursed. And it’s like, none of the bad things would have happened if they hadn’t given this gift. They meant it in a well-meaning way. And then people died.

[Thomas]
I like that.

[Shep]
Or is that… Is that too complex?

[Emily]
Well, I think you can build some tension with it. Well, you… Do we know it’s cursed at this point? Let’s ask that.

[Shep]
Yeah, it’s the “bomb under the table” question.

[Thomas]
What’s… What? What? The “bomb under the table” question?

[Shep]
The “bomb under the table”. It’s a Hitchcock thing. Two people having a conversation is boring.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Shep]
But if the audience knows there’s a bomb under the table, then there’s tension.

[Thomas]
Ah, I see, I see.

[Emily]
Because I was thinking you could build the tension in that, if we know that the sweater’s cursed or, like, have an inkling or, you know, even if the previews spoil that, we can watch it go from person to person to person thinking, “Oh, this is going to be-“

[Thomas]
Right. “Oh, this person is going to be cursed. This person is going to be cursed.”

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
And then it ends up in our main character’s hands. I see what you’re saying. I like that. Hmm.

[Emily]
Or you can look at it, it makes it feel like, is there a bit of destiny to it? Because it went from the original actor and sat dormant, and now it’s been passed and passed and passed until it reached this person. So there could be that question of, like, at some point, once he’s possessed by the killer or whatever, he could be like, “It was destiny” and we could throw that in there. “How else do you think it found me?”

[Thomas]
Sure. Yeah. He could believe that anyway, even if it’s not true.

[Emily]
Yeah. Yeah.

[Shep]
Right.

[Emily]
No, no. Yeah. I’m not saying it would be true for the plot, but he would think or feel or justify it.

[Thomas]
Yeah, yeah. I like that idea of watching it go from person to person. So, yeah, you’ve got the actor, the daughter, the broker, the, you know, maybe the broker sells it wholesale to a memorabilia shop, and then the memorabilia shop sends it to the friend.

[Shep]
Ah.

[Thomas]
The friend puts it in a box and it finally ends up in the hands of our main character. I don’t know if you guys remember the opening to the film Lord of War–

[Shep]
Yes!

[Thomas]
Where we watch a bullet being made and traveling all around, and then I think it gets fired at the end. That’s kind of how I picture this, is like we’re following- It’s like from the perspective of the sweater, we’re watching it go through all these different phases-

[Emily]
Right.

[Thomas]
Until eventually the box opens up on our main character and he holds it up. He’s like, “Oh, my gosh, it’s perfect.” And they’re like, “It’s perfect, because it’s been screen-matched and everything,” you know, so we know from that point that it’s the actual real sweater from the film.

[Emily]
So who is our main character? How old are they? Are they a man? Are they a woman? Are they..?

[Thomas]
Probably a man, right? Statistically likely to be a man.

[Emily]
Statistically, yes, it would be likely to be a man.

[Thomas]
And I think that would add to the fate/destiny thing that we were talking about before.

[Emily]
Mmm.

[Thomas]
Maybe there’s all these really tenuous connections they have where he’s like, and “I’m left handed also.”

[Emily]
Oh, yeah.

[Thomas]
And it’s like, what?

[Emily]
You can make up some weird bullshit that’s like, yeah, you live in LA-

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
And, like, 30% of the population are left-handed. “I’m left-handed. And when I was twelve, I went to La Brea Tar Pits.”

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
Yeah, everyone did.

[Thomas]
“I also had an art teacher who didn’t like me.” Like what? Maybe it turns out one of the things he thinks is a connection, like, “Actually, that’s an apocryphal story.”

[Emily]
“That never happened.”

[Shep]
I know this was my pitch…

[Thomas]
Uh oh.

[Shep]
And I’m trying real hard not to derail it immediately. See, it might be too much of a cliche.

[Emily]
The whole thing?

[Shep]
Yeah, the whole thing. Yes, but specifically. So it’s a male killer because it always is.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
Except what if it isn’t? What if he doesn’t remember committing any of the murders? Like, people get murdered and there’s blood on the sweater, and there’s now a bloody knife in his apartment, and he’s like, “Am I having a psychotic episode? I know I put on the sweater, and I fell asleep with the sweater on. But when I woke up, it was on the floor, and it was bloody. And there was a bloody knife next to it. And my downstairs neighbor, who’s always banging on my floor, being loud, got murdered in their apartment.”

[Thomas]
His girlfriend’s been wearing his sweater.

[Shep]
Well, that’s what I’m thinking, is it was the friend who gave it to him. She got cursed because she touched the sweater before she gave it to him.

[Emily]
She tried it on.

[Shep]
She tried it on.

[Thomas]
Because she was like, “Hey, this is kind of cool. Look at this.” Maybe she took a selfie with it.

[Shep]
Yes.

[Emily]
For her dating profile or something.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
But he, being a big movie buff, he reveres this sweater. This is not a thing you wear. This is a thing you put on a mannequin and stick in your living room and admire.

[Emily]
So, yeah, he is sort of that meticulous, “I’m going to frame it, put it on a mannequin,” but she convinces him to wear it to a Halloween party. “Come on. It’s perfect. It’s the actual sweater. It’ll be great.”

[Shep]
Right.

[Emily]
“We’re gonna go do that haunted Hollywood backlot haunted house tour that they do. And it’ll be great. It’ll just be really fun. It’ll really get us in the moment.” And then he gets wasted, and that’s when the first murder happens. And he’s blackout drunk, so he doesn’t, you know, there’s blood, there’s a dead body.

[Shep]
I want to add a running joke that people are correcting him on his sweater.

[Emily]
Mmm.

[Shep]
Like, “It almost looks like the sweater from that movie franchise, except it’s not all burnt up.” Because it’s burnt up from the second movie onward. Because it gets burnt at the end of the first movie. So, like, everybody remembers the burnt up sweater, but, like, in the first one, it’s not burnt up. And this is that sweater! Or is that hokey and dumb? I don’t know.

[Emily]
No, I love it.

[Thomas]
And then the joke is not only that, but he’s like, “Next person who says that to me, I’m gonna fucking kill them.”

[Shep]
Well, the payoff is that at the end, whoever the murderer is that’s wearing the sweater gets burnt up at the end of this movie.

[Thomas]
Yeah, that’s good.

[Emily]
I love it.

[Thomas]
Okay. No, I like that. Especially to have that payoff to the whole running gag. I think that’s wonderful. So do we want it to be the friend then? The female friend who’s the murderer?

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
She was the first person to wear it since the actor.

[Shep]
Yep.

[Thomas]
And so it’s cursed her.

[Emily]
So did the original actor go on a killing spree?

[Thomas]
He had to, right?

[Shep]
Or maybe he attempted to and-

[Emily]
Oh, was stopped.

[Shep]
Was stopped.

[Thomas]
Do you have to be actively wearing the sweater to commit the murders or-

[Shep]
Is it just enough to be cursed?

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
I think that you are cursed so you want to wear the sweater. Like, you’re still cursed and you could totally do it without the sweater. But the curse doesn’t feel complete until it has the sweater.

[Thomas]
Right. Because if we want the killer to be wearing the sweater at the end, they want to wear the sweater.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Shep]
I want to add another thing. I know I say that every 3 seconds.

[Emily]
No, it’s fine. That’s how we build a story.

[Shep]
Okay. The sweater gives you power, makes you stronger and faster, and, like, immune to bullets.

[Thomas]
Ah, yeah.

[Shep]
All the classic horror movie tropes are true when you’re wearing the sweater. Like, you can be wearing the sweater and go to kill someone, and the police come in and shoot you through the heart, and you fall down dead. But in a couple minutes, you’re gonna get back up again.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
Because that’s the sweater.

[Thomas]
So do you still have the compulsion to kill without the sweater, but with the sweater, you become superhuman? And so that’s why the original actor died? Because he had that compulsion to kill but was not wearing the sweater.

[Shep]
And so got killed by the police.

[Thomas]
And so got killed or whoever.

[Shep]
Or whoever. Right. Because Hollywood covered it up. So it wasn’t the police.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
It was, you know, whoever he was attacking.

[Thomas]
He was found dead in the park. They assume he was murdered by an attacker.

[Shep]
Hohoho!

[Thomas]
Because he has all these stab wounds or bullet wounds or whatever. He was, like, in the park because he was trying to murder someone. But they got the drop on him.

[Shep]
Right. They were defending themselves.

[Thomas]
Right. It was reported as, “Oh, he’s the victim.”

[Shep]
Right. It adds to the Hollywood legend. He died before the movie even came out.

[Thomas]
Oh, yeah.

[Shep]
And then it went on to be this big franchise.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
That’s great. See, this is great world-building you can add in before the reveal that on a subsequent watching, you’re like, “Oh!”

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
“That’s what happened.”

[Thomas]
So the plot of our movie is basically this main character trying to figure out, “Am I blacking out and going on this murder spree?”

[Shep]
Yes.

[Emily]
Does the… Does the friend who’s actually the killer, do they also black out, or do they know the whole time what’s going on?

[Thomas]
I feel like they should know, because then she can try to lead him astray. She can be like, “Great. He thinks it’s him.”

[Emily]
Mm.

[Thomas]
“I’m going to feed that.”

[Emily]
So are we only seeing one murder at first, or are there going to be multiple ones? Because I think at some point you can’t justify her continuing to help him if he’s killed four people.

[Thomas]
I see what you’re saying.

[Emily]
Without revealing that she is. Because I think that’s. We don’t want to know that. Right?

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
We want to see that in subsequent viewings that she’s doing these things to manipulate him.

[Shep]
So is she helping him avoid getting caught for the murders he’s committing? Like, how is she helping him? How is she, quote unquote “helping” him? Because we really know she’s manipulating him.

[Emily]
Right. I was thinking it was like, in Memento, where she’s his assistant to help investigate what’s been going on while he’s blacked out.

[Thomas]
I think it’s twofold, like you said, Emily, she’s helping him “figure it out”, quote unquote. But really what she’s doing is planting the things in his mind that she wants him to think. And then the other one is, her stance is, “I get that you’re going through this complicated thing. Clearly you aren’t the killer. How could you be the killer?” So she’s helping him stay sane, basically. And that’s why she feels justified. Like, “Okay, there are four murders, but you’re clearly not the murderer. You couldn’t possibly be.” To any outside observer, her continuing to support him looks reasonable and rational.

[Emily]
Okay.

[Thomas]
But she’s also helping to deflect suspicion from her.

[Emily]
Right. Because we don’t put two and two together, that wherever he is, when the murders happen, she is.

[Thomas]
Right. The audience only knows slightly more than him.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
I mean, he is basically our eyes in the film. Right? So when we want the audience to know something, we tell it to him or show it to him.

[Shep]
Right.

[Emily]
They’re just a platonic couple. Right? They’re not-

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
Yeah.

[Emily]
Okay, good, because I feel like that’s going to make it easier for her to be like, “No, I know you. We’ve been friends since we were seven. There’s no way you’re doing this. Someone is framing you” or- So the first murder, it’s very ambiguous, like, wrong place, wrong time. He didn’t necessarily do anything.

[Thomas]
It could even be so that you said they went to a party. So somebody at the party is killed.

[Emily]
Mmm.

[Thomas]
And there are a whole big bunch of suspects. There’s a big party, lots of people are being questioned.

[Emily]
Okay.

[Thomas]
Maybe there’s not any heat on him. But then later he discovers something that now he’s like, “Wait.”

[Emily]
Well, the second murder, then he has to think, it has to be more tied to him, to where he thinks it’s him.

[Thomas]
Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[Emily]
And then he goes back to think, “Wait a minute. At the party. I don’t remember after this point.”

[Thomas]
And maybe the person who was murdered at the party, like, was already drunk earlier and bumped into him and spilled his drink and was a big dick about it. And so it’s like, “Did I get blackout drunk and murder that guy for spilling my drink?” Like-

[Shep]
Is this the Halloween party that he’s wearing the sweater to?

[Emily]
Yes.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
So they spilled the drink on the sweater, his precious sweater, but also her precious sweater.

[Thomas]
Yes. Right.

[Emily]
Mm hmm.

[Thomas]
Yeah, yeah. Ooh, that’s good.

[Emily]
Perfect.

[Shep]
So they get murdered for spilling it on the sweater, but not by the person that we think.

[Thomas]
Yeah, that’s good.

[Emily]
But for the reason we think.

[Shep]
But for the reason.

[Thomas]
Yes.

[Shep]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
All right, we have a really solid start here. Beautiful world that I love that we’re playing in, and I think it’s very appropriate for the time of year as we’re getting toward Halloween. So we’re going to take a little break here, and when we come back, we’ll find out how these other murders occur and how our main character figures out he’s not the murderer in our story about a sweater.

[Break]

[Thomas]
All right, we’re back. I think our first murder is fantastic. It really sets up the misdirection that we want for the audience. So how does the second murder narrow the focus onto our main character?

[Shep]
So the first one is just a person at the same party.

[Emily]
Mm.

[Thomas]
With, like, hundreds of other people, so…

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Shep]
Right.

[Emily]
Wild Halloween night. People get murdered all the time.

[Thomas]
It is LA.

[Shep]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
So the second one has to be a little bit more personal. So it occurs around his apartment building or nearby or near where he works or-

[Thomas]
Something like that, yeah.

[Shep]
Some other connection.

[Thomas]
But still not so personal that the cops are looking right at him.

[Shep]
Right.

[Emily]
What about, like, a surly gas station attendant?

[Shep]
Yeah. Or someone walks their dog, and the dog always barks at our main character. Or the dog’s not leashed up or something. Oh, so maybe a surly gas station attendant who has a dog running around in the store that barks at our main character every time he tries to go in and pay for gas. Do you go in and pay for gas anymore? I don’t think that’s a thing anymore.

[Emily]
If the pump’s broken.

[Shep]
Why keep going to this gas station? It’s got to be like-

[Emily]
It’s gotta be really close to his house. And I was thinking it’s just where he goes and buys his, like, energy drinks or something.

[Shep]
Right. It’s the bodega downstairs.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
Yeah.

[Emily]
Because it’s by the house and you have a habit. And the first person who worked there was really great. And you got a really good relationship with that person, but they went on and married some rich asshole and became a philanthropist.

[Thomas]
But it’s the same slushy machine, and they’re really good.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Shep]
So the reason I like it being a surly gas station attendant is that it could be mistaken for a robbery.

[Emily]
Yes.

[Thomas]
Ah, yes.

[Emily]
But this time there’s more evidence on him for him to realize. Right?

[Thomas]
Yes.

[Shep]
Right.

[Emily]
Oh, you know what would be great is he doesn’t remember going to buy his energy drink. And when he wakes up the next day, there’s, like, a couple energy drinks in his fridge, one with some blood splatter on it. It’s very, like, innocuous if you’re not paying attention. But he notices the sticky film on it when he goes to drink it.

[Shep]
Oh, so the energy drink is also red.

[Thomas]
Ah, yeah.

[Shep]
And so he’s like, “Oh, there was one that leaked or something.” And so he just takes the can to the sink and washes it off, thinking it’s just dried energy drink.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
I was going to say that there shouldn’t be any energy drinks. And that’s his clue that “Why would I go there? I didn’t even buy my energy drinks.” But I do like that, the red energy drink.

[Emily]
Well. Because I like the idea that he doesn’t remember going there. He didn’t think he went there, but his energy drink’s in the fridge. So he must have stopped by on his way home. It was a really long night of something.

[Shep]
What does he do?

[Emily]
I don’t know, PA?

[Shep]
Or he’s a writer. He’s a Hollywood writer. He wants to break into the industry. That’s why he’s obsessed with movies.

[Thomas]
Oh, so he’s a waiter.

[Shep]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
He’s a cater waiter. And he was just catering in a…

[Shep]
And he thought something was going to happen, but she ended up dating her coworker like a fool. So does he have an assistant, or is she a friend? Or is it a childhood friend who is now his assistant?

[Thomas]
Oh god, for her sake, I hope not.

[Emily]
I think she’s just a friend.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
Childhood friend.

[Shep]
Okay.

[Thomas]
I mean, they could both be like friends who’ve grown up together. They both want to be writers, screenwriters.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
They both live in LA.

[Emily]
They’re us, but had met in childhood.

[Thomas]
Right. And live in LA.

[Emily]
And live in LA.

[Shep]
I was just trying to come up with a reason that she might have been the one to buy his energy drinks.

[Thomas]
Right. I think she knows him well enough and she is trying to frame him or make him think that it’s his fault.

[Shep]
So the reason that I was asking was because if she buys his energy drinks and then she claims she forgot, she didn’t buy his energy drinks because she was out murdering. Well, we don’t know that. So she didn’t buy his energy drinks, and so he’ll have to go and buy them himself. But he doesn’t like going in there because the store owner lets their Rottweiler run around, and so it’s real unpleasant. So he doesn’t want to go in. He doesn’t want to go in and… But he doesn’t remember going in. Maybe he went up to the door and didn’t go in. And then the next day finds the energy drinks in his fridge. Like, “Did I go back?”

[Thomas]
Right. He goes up to the door and the dog is standing on the other side of the door barking at him.

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
And he’s like, “Never mind.”

[Shep]
And the dog was also killed, to be clear.

[Emily]
Yeah, yeah.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
Except she was the one that was going to get his energy drinks. So she killed the dog and the cashier.

[Emily]
Oh, maybe earlier, he said, they have a conversation on the phone. And she’s like, “I’m going to run by the store. Do you need me to grab anything?” And he’s like, “Oh, yeah, can you get me an energy drink? (So and so) is working at the convenience store today and their damn dogs there. And you know how I hate going when the dog’s there.” So that shows that he would have gone and bought it, but he didn’t. But he told her to buy it.

[Shep]
See, I’m wondering if that’s too obvious that it was her.

[Emily]
Okay.

[Shep]
But sometimes you want really obvious things in a movie. So the audience goes, “I knew it,” during the reveal.

[Emily]
Right.

[Shep]
And then they feel smart.

[Emily]
We’ll double red herring it.

[Thomas]
Yeah. Sometimes you can cut directly to Bruce Willis when Hailey Joel Osment says, “I see dead people” and I didn’t even notice. So.

[Shep]
Yep.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Shep]
That one’s real different on a second watch.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
It really is.

[Shep]
Well, see, that’s why I wanted to say, to establish that she buys them, but also that she didn’t. So the audience isn’t thinking, “Oh, she’s going to buy them.” And then later, when we see energy drinks and the store owner was murdered, it’s like, “Oh, obviously she’s the killer.”

[Thomas]
Right, right.

[Shep]
She said, I’m going to go buy energy drinks, and there are energy drinks in the fridge covered in blood, and the store owner is dead.

[Emily]
Mh.

[Thomas]
So what you’re saying is she normally buys them or is going to buy them this time, or whatever.

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
She shows up and says, “I didn’t, I couldn’t, they didn’t have them.” Whatever the excuse is, she did not buy them.

[Shep]
She did not buy them.

[Emily]
Mmm.

[Thomas]
Okay.

[Shep]
Her excuse is she forgot or something like that because she wasn’t out doing her normal things that she does to help him because she was out murdering that guy that spilled on the sweater.

[Thomas]
Right. Well, wait, that timeline doesn’t work then though.

[Emily]
I thought she was out murdering the convenience store guy.

[Shep]
No, no, no. That’s later. This is why she didn’t buy the energy drinks. That’s why he doesn’t have them later. Because she was supposed to buy them earlier, but she was out murdering.

[Thomas]
Who is she murdering earlier?

[Shep]
The guy at the party.

[Emily]
But they were at the party together when the guy dies.

[Shep]
Are they at the party together when the guy dies?

[Emily]
They’re at the party when the guy dies. The guy dies at the party while they’re at the party.

[Shep]
Ah.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
Not like a day later or they’ve left.

[Thomas]
Yeah, that’s what I was thinking also.

[Shep]
Okay.

[Thomas]
So what I was getting at though is that, so she’s supposed to have brought these. She did not. The next day he wakes up and they’re in his fridge. And so he blacked out at the party because he got drunk. And maybe there’s another instance of him blacking out. Maybe he’s on a new medication, whatever, right? We have some excuse why he’s been blacking out lately. And so he thinks, “Did I go and buy these last night? I don’t remember that. But I have been forgetting things lately, I guess so.” See, I don’t know though. Maybe this needs to be a later one. Maybe this isn’t number two.

[Shep]
All right.

[Emily]
Okay.

[Thomas]
So this is the convenience store that’s next door to his apartment building.

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
So we need something that’s like, the party is like super far away, no real connection to him. This is very close to him, much more of a connection. So we need like an in-between, something that’s within like a 15-minute walk from his apartment.

[Emily]
Is he a waiter? Does a coworker die? Or is that too close to him?

[Shep]
See, that would be real close to him. If it’s a coworker, it should be a construction worker.

[Emily]
Near his office.

[Shep]
Just on that path.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
A gay construction worker who catcalled him, or-

[Shep]
Well, he catcalled her. Maybe harassed him or threw trash at him or something just to be an asshole.

[Thomas]
Right. Catcalled her and was like, “What’s she doing with you? You scrub.”

[Emily]
Yeah. Well, threatens him maybe because he tries to defend her and be like, “Dude.”

[Shep]
Or the guy’s just putting him down to catcall her, like, “Leave that loser and be with the real man, not that scrawny geek.”

[Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
And then gets murdered, and you’re like, “Oh, he did insult the main character that one time.”

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
So it’s the reason why. But it’s not the reason why.

[Emily]
Oh.

[Shep]
Just like earlier.

[Thomas]
Yeah. So now that creates a real obvious- Because this is a total stranger who he just had an interaction with within the past 24 hours. And so he is like, “Whoa, wait a minute, I know that guy. That’s the guy that harassed us yesterday. Did I kill that guy?” Because there’s, he, like, he doesn’t even suspect her, because that’s weird.

[Shep]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
And then he’s starting to think it over. Like, “Wait, that dude died at the party, and that guy spilled the drink on my sweater. Did I kill that guy? Am I killing people and not remembering this?”

[Shep]
So why is he blacking out?

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
Is she drugging him?

[Thomas]
I think it’s just she’s doing murders while he’s asleep.

[Shep]
Ah.

[Thomas]
Or in the case of the party, he’s blacked out. So she’s like, maybe they live in the same apartment building. Of course they have keys to each other’s apartments because they’re friends.

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
And so she’s, like, sneaking in, stealing the sweater, murdering people, putting the sweater back, or in the case of the convenience store, “Well, while I’m here doing this murder, I’ll grab a couple of these energy drinks.”

[Emily]
Well, what is the convenience store clerk do to her to make her mad?

[Thomas]
Yes, good question. Does the dog just, like, is the dog mean to everybody?

[Emily]
Yeah, they could have gone in and the dog’s like-

[Thomas]
Yeah, he doesn’t want to go because he’s like, “Oh, that fucking dog is going to be there.”

[Emily]
“Fucking dog.”

[Thomas]
And she’s like, “It’s fine.”

[Emily]
Yeah. And then she makes a comment about, you know, “You should keep this- One, this is unsanitary. There shouldn’t be a dog here. And two, if you are gonna bring him, he should be at least leashed.” And then the surly consonant store clerk’s like, “Yeah, fuck you, cunt.”

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
And just like, is really abrasive and insulting to her.

[Shep]
Uh, I’m sorry. “Fuck you, bitch.”

[Emily]
Bitch.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
Because it’s a dog.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Shep]
“I gotta leash this dog? You’re walking around without a leash, bitch.”

[Emily]
Perfect.

[Thomas]
Perfect. Good. Yeah.

[Emily]
But they’re there together when that happens. So it’s, again, the same reason, but not.

[Thomas]
Oh, that could be- So she doesn’t need to get the energy drinks. That’s when he’s going to buy the energy drinks. So they get in this verbal altercation with the guy, and he’s like, “I’m not giving this guy any money. Fuck it. We don’t need to buy anything from here.” And they leave. So that’s why he doesn’t have the energy drinks. So we don’t need some sort of weird thing like, “Hey, I’m going to be stopping off.” Or that’s a thing she normally does for him. So he has them in his hands when the altercation is happening, and he puts them back on the shelf.

[Emily]
Mh.

[Thomas]
He’s like, “No, forget it. We’re not coming- We’re not spending money here. We’re not supporting this asshole.” Shep, you look unconvinced.

[Shep]
Oh, I’m just thinking about other things. Does she rob the convenience store while she’s murdering the guy and his dog? Does she also take the money?

[Emily]
Usually it escalates from robbery to murder, but we could totally go from murder to robbery.

[Thomas]
I mean, she’s also trying not to get caught, right?

[Emily]
Right.

[Thomas]
We want intelligent characters, so she realizes she needs to make it look like a robbery gone bad. Plus, hey, a free $50 or whatever’s in the till, you know?

[Emily]
Yeah. Plus, it’s an extra thrill on top of the killing. It’s like a little cherry on the sundae of death.

[Shep]
Right, but my thinking is that it’s demonstrating that she’s just crazy.

[Emily]
Mmm. Yeah.

[Shep]
Because the character in the movie isn’t robbing convenience stores, it’s just murdering people. And so she murders this guy and also robs the store. That’s not something the original character did. So it’s, to me, it’s implying that the sweater isn’t supernatural. She’s just crazy. I guess it makes it ambiguous.

[Emily]
Mmm.

[Shep]
Like, is the sweater actually cursed or is she just insane?

[Emily]
She’s insane. And then she convinces herself the sweater’s cursed and makes her impervious.

[Shep]
Right.

[Emily]
Ooh, I like that. Because then at the beginning with the guy being dead without wearing the sweater, we have that ambiguous idea that maybe the sweater would have protected him because she’s getting away with it wearing the sweater. But really she’s just batshit crazy and convinced that this is how it works. She’s created this lore in her own head.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
And, yeah, at the end, she could do, like, you know, with her bad guy speech.

[Shep]
Her monologue.

[Emily]
Yeah, yeah.

[Thomas]
Right. She thinks the sweater is going to make her impervious, so when she catches on fire, she doesn’t do anything about it because she’s like, “It doesn’t matter.” And then that ends up killing her.

[Shep]
But that’s what stops the guy in the first movie. Did she not watch the movie?

[Emily]
It wasn’t the same sweater. It was a different prop sweater for the stunt guy.

[Shep]
It was a different sweater for the stunt guy.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
Because they burn it up.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
But I’m saying, like, in the movie within the movie, that’s how they stop the guy.

[Emily]
Mm hmm.

[Thomas]
Yeah. But she knows how the movie was made and that that was a different sweater.

[Shep]
Ah. Hmm.

[Thomas]
So she’s thinking, this is the real deal, and the only reason the actor got killed is because he wasn’t wearing the sweater at the time.

[Emily]
Also, by this point, her psychotic break has gone very far-

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
And logic does not necessarily important.

[Shep]
So anyway, we have a couple of murders.

[Emily and Thomas]
Yep.

[Shep]
We have the guy thinking maybe he’s the murderer. What does he do then?

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
Does he go to the police? Or does he go to her and say, “Hey, I think I might be killing people. I need you to handcuff me to the radiator tonight so that I don’t go out a killin’.”

[Emily]
Obviously the latter.

[Thomas]
Yeah. Like, that’s part of her role, is to stop him from going to the police.

[Emily]
“We don’t even know if you’re doing this, and if you go to the police, it’s going to cast a suspicion on you and it’ll ruin your career.”

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
“You know, you’ll have this following you forever. It’s not the sixties. You’re not Roman Polanski. You can’t get away with this shit.”

[Shep]
So what happens then?

[Emily]
Then he asks her to help monitor him to see if it is him or if he’s just going crazy. Because she’s gaslighting him. Right?

[Shep]
Yes, all the murders are happening while he is asleep. So he’s like, “I need to be handcuffed to the radiator or whatever so that I can’t go out murdering.”

[Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
“And also get that sweater away from me.” And she’s like, “Okay, I’ll get rid of it.”

[Thomas]
Has he made that connection to the sweater?

[Shep]
Oh, good question.

[Emily]
How do we find out about the lore of the sweater? That has to pop up.

[Thomas]
I wonder if at the convenience store, there’s a camera that catches just a fraction of the person.

[Shep]
Ah, it catches the sweater.

[Thomas]
Right. That’s all you see is the sweater. You can’t see their height, you can’t see their hair, you can’t see their face. You can’t see anything about them. Just this bit of the sweater.

[Emily]
And only you would know it if it was your sweater or you were obsessed with this movie, because otherwise it’s just a normal sweater.

[Shep and Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
It’s a black and white camera.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
Could be anyone.

[Thomas]
Sure. Yeah. You can’t tell what the colors are, but if you know.

[Shep]
Yep. But if you know, you know.

[Thomas]
And so maybe the sweater is draped over a chair that’s just to the side of his television. So while he’s watching it, he sees the thing, and he looks over at the sweater, and he’s like, looks at the energy drink in his hand, and he’s like, “Did I do a murder?” Has, like, the flashback to 30 seconds ago. He’s like, “Ugh, it’s sticky.” And then he calls her, goes and knocks on her door. He’s like, “I need your help. I’m freaking out.” And so, yeah, so I’m trying to decide, does he do the whole handcuffing to the radiator, or is he saying, “I need you to sit with me. I need you to stay up with me all night and make sure that it’s not me.”

[Emily]
Oh, “We have to stay up all night. I can’t go to sleep.”

[Thomas]
Right. And then she drugs him or something, slips a Benadryl in his wine or whatever. In his energy drink.

[Emily]
Well, I mean, it could be because he would want to stay up, so you would drink more energy drinks.

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
But he’s drinking an energy drink that was opened by her in the other room and brought to him, open?

[Emily]
He doesn’t think anything of it. Would you if I brought you a seltzer?

[Shep]
That was open?

[Emily]
Yeah. I said, can I get you anything? You’re like, yeah, I’ll have a seltzer. And I open it for you because I’m being friendly.

[Thomas]
And you pour it in a glass with ice. You know, you make it a thing.

[Emily]
And then I bring it to you, and you’re like, “Oh, you didn’t have to.” You wouldn’t think that I was trying to poison you. I mean, now you will, but then before.

[Shep]
I always think everyone is trying to poison me all the time. Remember your survival training from elementary school? So he could open the energy drink himself and she slips something into it later is what I was saying.

[Thomas]
Sure.

[Emily]
Yeah, I mean, he’s gotta pee at some point if he’s drinking a lot of energy drinks.

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
Yeah, that’s true. So that’s murder number four. Who does she murder that time?

[Shep]
It’s got to be someone conveniently close in case he wakes up.

[Thomas]
Yep.

[Emily]
The angry downstairs neighbor with the broom.

[Thomas]
Yes.

[Shep]
Yeah. The murders are getting closer and closer to his apartment.

[Thomas]
Yes. Perfect. Why does she dislike that neighbor? How has that neighbor slighted her?

[Shep]
Maybe they haven’t. And she’s like, “Okay, it’s time to put an end to this and really frame him up.”

[Emily]
Maybe it is just a matter of, “I need to kill. Who can I kill? Hey, Barry’s home.”

[Shep]
Or they start banging on the ceiling and she’s like, “Ah.”

[Thomas]
Yeah. So does she slip him in Ambien and then he, like, falls asleep, and then she goes and murders the guy, goes back home, and the next morning she’s like, “What are you talking about? We didn’t hang out yesterday.”

[Emily]
Oh, full on.

[Thomas]
Does Ambien kind of give you memory stuff?

[Emily]
Yeah, I think it does.

[Thomas]
I don’t know. I’m not familiar with it really, at all.

[Emily]
I know one of them does.

[Thomas]
Whichever one is the one that messes with your memory.

[Shep]
Whichever one doesn’t sponsor the movie, they’re going to be blamed for all the bad stuff.

[Emily]
Right.

[Thomas]
I like that idea of getting multiple sponsors so that they will not appear in the film. That’s an excellent idea. So then what? Does he turn himself in because he’s convinced at this point it must be him? Does she get blood on the sweater on purpose this time and put it in his apartment?

[Shep]
How do we want this to end?

[Thomas]
It’s a good question.

[Shep]
We know that she burns up, but does he go to jail for all the murders?

[Emily]
All right, so true Hollywood ending would be somehow he’s magically not convicted and everyone’s okay with knowing she’s the murderess and he’s free to go. Reality would be he murdered her and is now going to prison for a very long time. Because she was his fifth and final victim.

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
Oh, I feel like the Hollywood ending is he realizes she’s the murderer and stops her by killing her.

[Emily]
Yeah, no, that happens. But it’s what happens to him after that.

[Thomas]
Oh, I see what you’re saying.

[Emily]
Either he’s- The police are like, “Yep, that checks out.”

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
“She was the killer. You did us a justice. Free to go. Justifiable homicide.” Or “You’ve racked up quite a body count.”

[Thomas]
So I think the way that we, if that’s the ending we want, the way we can make that work is she does the fourth murder. It’s the neighbor downstairs, but he isn’t arrested for it. And she’s like, “Oh, for fuck’s sake.” And so he becomes the next victim. Our main character becomes her next victim. He’s the final girl.

[Emily]
Oh.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
Because he’s getting too close to-

[Thomas]
Right. He’s starting to put the pieces together.

[Emily]
He’s realizing it’s happening around him and that it’s connected to him somehow. But it’s not him. It’s her.

[Thomas]
Does he find some kind of evidence that he realizes exonerates him? “Wait a minute. I couldn’t have been there because (xyz).” But somehow he realizes it’s her. And then he confronts her and she tries to kill him. And then he defends himself, somehow lighting her on fire. I know this is not how science works, but this is funny. The drink, the alcoholic drink that was spilled on the sweater at the beginning, he hasn’t washed the sweater, and so he lights that alcohol on fire, you know, like, it wouldn’t have all evaporated away.

[Shep]
Right.

[Emily]
Well, yeah, all the water evaporated, leaving nothing but pure alcohol to be burned instantly.

[Thomas]
Right. That’s science, right?

[Emily]
That’s chemistry.

[Thomas]
That’s Hollywood chemistry.

[Shep]
I do like the idea of it being alcohol as the accelerant.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
He can spill alcohol on it again somehow and that could infuriate her because she’s already murdered someone for doing this, and he knows that.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
Is that when he’s trying to out her?

[Thomas]
Yeah. I think he’s confronting her and she’s like, “Why are you saying these things?” And blah, blah, blah. And then he just grabs the drink and throws it on her. And that’s when she turns. He knows that’s going to trigger her.

[Shep]
Is the sweater missing? Is she wearing it under her clothes? Did he ask her to get rid of it? That’s-

[Thomas]
Yeah, we said earlier that he wanted her to get rid of it.

[Shep]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
So she’s like, “Okay, I’ll take it with me.” Which she’s pleased about.

[Shep]
Right. She doesn’t have to sneak back into his apartment and put it back anymore.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
What is the evidence that exonerates him?

[Thomas]
That’s going to be, I think, the most crucial thing here.

[Shep]
I think that she has to try to kill him in a more public place. Because she’s full-on crazy. And then he fights back, and she burns up, and people are filming it on their cell phones.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
Mm.

[Shep]
So you see that scene where she’s burning up, and it echoes the scene in the movie where he’s burning up.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
Okay, so- Because she’s crazy now. And before that big altercation, she comes over wearing the sweater. You know, she’s got a coat on. You don’t see it. And they’re having a conversation. And he’s kind of jabbing at her to try and get her, trying to get it out of her that she’s the killer. Because he’s put two and two together somehow.

[Thomas]
Okay.

[Emily]
I just want this scene. So, I don’t think it would work, but I just wanna see it. So she comes out of the bathroom or the bedroom after they have an argument. And she’s like, “You’re crazy.” And she starts to cry and get really upset because he’s losing his mind and she’s losing her friend. And it’s very upsetting. It’s a big manipulation tool. And she locks herself in the bathroom to get herself together. And she comes out and is seductively wearing the sweater and walking towards him. Because she’s batshit crazy. So now she’s gonna solve this with seduction. And he’s like, “What the fuck?”

[Shep]
But she’s wearing the sweater.

[Emily]
Yeah. And that’s part of his “What the fuck? Why?” Yeah.

[Thomas]
So she’s wearing only the sweater and trying to sweet-talk him.

[Emily]
Yes. And that’s his not aha moment, but his confirmation moment of “Yeah, you’re crazy.”

[Thomas]
Right. Is she trying to appeal to like, “We are the two biggest fans of this film. How fitting is it for us to have not only the sweater, but the life of the serial killer?” Like, whatever her-

[Emily]
Crazy speech.

[Thomas]
Insane rationale is that she thinks like, “No, he’s just like me.”

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
Like, “No, bitch, you crazy.”

[Shep]
Okay, can we make her a fan of true crime podcasts earlier?

[Thomas]
Is she a white woman? Yes, we can.

[Shep]
So he asks her about murders. Because he doesn’t know about murders. And she’s like, “What are you talking about?” And he confesses that he thinks he might be murdering people. And she’s like, “Well, if you are, that’s okay. Like, I’ll still stand by you.”

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Shep]
Because she’s the murderer and she’s into murder. She kind of wants him to be a murderer, too.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
And why is he not murdering people?

[Thomas]
He also wore this sweater.

[Shep]
Did he?

[Emily]
To the Halloween party.

[Shep]
Oh, yeah. He wore it to the Halloween party. Yes. Yeah, you’re right.

[Thomas]
And maybe she tries to get him to wear it another time.

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
She’s like, hoping, like, he’ll also have this happen to him.

[Shep]
The curse. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
Yeah. So they can be best buds killing together.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Emily]
Yeah. Because when I want her to like, come out seductively just wearing the sweater, I don’t want that to be like a legitimate her trying to seduce him. It’s just her manipulating him further.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Emily]
Because she’s tried crying, she’s tried drugging, she’s tried gaslighting. So this is what’s next. Oh, sexual wiles.

[Thomas]
But what is that evidence, though?

[Emily]
What is that evidence?

[Thomas]
Is this a problem for the writers? We know there’s evidence that he discovers that exonerates him.

[Shep]
See, I don’t know if there’s evidence that exonerates him, because in a lot of Hollywood endings-

[Thomas]
Or that convinces him anyway.

[Shep]
Yeah, it convinces him. Maybe it’s something that comes up in their conversation. She says something that gives her away. She knows something she shouldn’t know, and he knows that only the murderer would know whatever it is, this is a problem for the writers.

[Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
So it gives it away to him that she’s the killer and he is innocent. Now he knows it, so he has to expose her. I think this is when he throws alcohol on her and she reveals she’s wearing the sweater underneath, whatever, her coat or whatever. She’s like, “I cleaned it. I already took care of that one guy.” Because she’s exposed at that point.

[Emily and Thomas]
Right.

[Shep]
So she tries to chase him and kill him, and he flees to a more public place, and then she dies to fire.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
And it’s witnessed and videotaped by people. So there is evidence that she was trying to kill him.

[Emily]
Yep.

[Shep]
That’s the exoneration that he needs.

[Thomas]
Yeah.

[Shep]
Happy Hollywood ending.

[Emily]
Yep.

[Thomas]
Works for me.

[Emily]
He survives but lost a best friend.

[Shep]
Yep. And his present got burned up. That was his sweater.

[Emily]
Yeah.

[Thomas]
What’s the denouement moment of this story? I guess. Do we want to have something where somehow the burned sweater comes back to him? Or-

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
There’s a little thing that’s like, dun dun dun. Oh, my gosh.

[Shep]
Right.

[Thomas]
It could be happening again.

[Shep]
The sequel set up stinger. Classic in horror movies.

[Thomas]
Right, right.

[Emily]
Right.

[Shep]
Yes.

[Thomas]
Is that another problem for the writers we know that’s a thing that’ll happen based off of something earlier in the story.

[Shep]
Yes.

[Thomas]
Do that. Okay. Well, we’d love to hear your thoughts on today’s show about a Sweater. Did we manage to spin a good yarn, or did we spend too much time sweating the small stuff? Let us know by leaving a comment on our website, reaching out on social media, or sending us an email. Links to all of those can be found at AlmostPlausible.com where we post complete transcripts for every episode, links to the references we make, as well as information about each of us and how you can support the show. Stay warm until it’s time to join Emily, Shep, and I on the next episode of Almost Plausible.

[Outro music]

[Shep]
He doesn’t just say, “I see dead people.” The full line is, “I see dead people. They don’t even know they’re dead.”

[Thomas]
That’s right.

[Shep]
Fucking what? It’s handed to us on a silver platter. I didn’t get it.

[Thomas]
No, I didn’t notice it at all. And there was an interview with M. Night Shyamalan where he was like, “Oh, man, I’m so worried about right in that moment, people are going to know.” And, boy, I don’t know anybody who did.

[Shep]
Yep.

[Emily]
No, not in that moment.

[Thomas]
Not in that moment.

[Emily]
I figured it out later.

[Shep]
I didn’t figure it out to the end with the wedding rings.

[Thomas]
Yeah, same.

[Emily]
Figured it out when he broke the window at the jewelry store.

[Thomas]
Well, anyway.

[Emily]
Anyway.

[Shep]
Anyway.